a few more times around on the little wheel

The problem with Lee Goldberg (and his blog) are you have to take the name of his blog seriously. "The whinings and ranting of ... Lee Goldberg."

I'd never heard of him before he did his scree on fanfic a few months ago...

I'm thinking the irony of this is that a good many people probably only know of him because he's such a virulent and nasty opponent of fan fic rather than becasue of anything he's actually written ficiton wise. (Of course, I don't read mysteries so, I admit to a rather narrow view of the world.)

I don't think his original work is particularly well known in the mystery field, FWIW. And yes, clearly he means that blog title -- which is fine, after all, free speech and all that, people can rant even irrationally if they want to. It just means it's not worth engaging with him.

What you said.

Like Maygra said above, I never heard of Goldberg before this either, except that I do read mysteries. He seems to be really milking this for all it's worth. He kind of reminds me of the reporter who declared that all women disliked Lord of the Rings, and the other reporter who did the article on how adults who read the Harry Potter books did so because they were mentally stunted or in a second childhood or something.

You know, I have wondered occasionally if it might be a deliberate milking. But I don't really think so, it's just that a self-promotion motive would make more *sense* to me, given that no one is writing fanfic about his own creations or at all likely to, and the kind of work he does.

I'm really happy to hear your thoughts on this, and thanks for the heads up about the Goldberg mess. It's a fascinating topic, and I hope you'll let us know when the mp3 is available. I'd love to hear the show.

I would too! ;-) Still no MP3 as yet, but I will post here when I spot it on their site.

Oh, so that's how you feel?

OMG L/T interspecies mpreg slave fiction INCOMING!!!

Okay, so yes, I must acknowledge that even I do have one caveat -- not until the book is out, please. *g*

I hope you'll post a link to this analysis at the Open Source blog on the fanfic page. I agree that there's little merit in bringing this discussion to Lee's blog, for the reasons you mentioned, but it pains me to see these conversations degenerate the way they always do, and I can't help wanting people to see that we're a lot pleasanter and saner than the nutballs who insult us. *g*

Yes, I did go ahead and do that -- I've kind of wanted to wait until the MP3 was out to comment on the show, but I'm not sure when it's going to show up.

Oh, I do adore you. The discussions about fanfic over on his blog generally just make me splutter (Diagnosis Murder tie-ins? I mean, really), and I feel like I lose all ability to articulate, even to myself, why this is a loving activity, rather than terrible and horrible thing that spits on the creator, blah blah blah.

Plus, people who insist that slash is a perversion of the characters have clearly never seen due South, or The Sentinel, or Sports Night, or Starsky and Hutch, or Angel...

Okay, wait, I hadn't actually read the latest posts on his blog. Because...wow. I don't think there's a more inappropriate word than "dimwit" to call you and the other guests. He disagrees, fine. He disapproves, fine. He calls you stupid? He's not worth taking seriously.

Would you be willing to post a link to his blog? I'm very curious now to see what he's got to say.

Thanks!

Honestly, I don't feel his remarks deserve to be dignified with a link. You can find his posts pretty easily from the radioopensource blog or by googling his name, though -- and actually I see someone has posted a link in the comment below, too.

The discussion is here: http://leegoldberg.typepad.com/a_writers_life/2005/06/we_are_more_emo.html#comments .

The thing about Lee Goldberg is that there is nothing dividing what he does from fanfiction except the imprimatur of legal permission from the creator/creators to do what he does and to profit monetarily from it. While this may make a significant difference to the legality of his work versus the legality of a fanfiction writer's, it make no discernible difference to the artistic merit of what he does. He would desperately like to think it does, but it doesn't.

Hi anonymous -- if you read this, would you mind signing your post in the text? I leave anonymous posts enabled for posts by people who don't have lj accounts, but I do like to know who's talking and when they're being made by the same person. (A pseud is fine, of course -- I just want something to hang the posts on in my head *g*.)

Mr. Goldberg is one of the people I referred to in my post as earning a shrug and a "Whatever." Anyone who will dismiss people who actually know something not only about the fanfic process but about the history of literature as "dimwits" just isn't worth my time. Really, I've hit the point where I think such hysterical reactions need to be greeted with a silent handing over of a Norton Anthology.

*nods* There's just no point talking to someone when insults are the starting point of the conversation.

My, how I've been spoiled by academia. I think I've spent too much time in a world where arguments are made based on logic and evidence, and immediately given no corner once the ad hominem attacks start, or once it's clear that the person has no leg to stand on. If only the internet were like that.

Or maybe ol' Lee needs a good ol' whack with a fish. I'd like to see that. :)

*here from fandom_wank, where your name was presented as the cool voice of logic in the midst of the rantings of an idiot*

You've clearly been in nicer academic circles than I have! ;-) (*kids*)

I, too, got here via fandom_wank, or more accurately, the post located here. (You've got a lot of supporters there, by the way).

I'll admit that I hadn't yet heard of you or of Mr. Goldberg when I flipped through the discussions, though I do enjoy the show Diagnosis Murder (and so does my father). However, given the indirect back-and-forth between the two blogs, I have to say that I think you and another commenter pinpointed the source of his disgruntled stance: Mr. Goldberg is not getting fanfiction about his books; also, it creates more traffic on his blog if he incites fanfic authors (oh no, I called them authors! The nerve!) to rage against him en masse. After all, no publicity is bad publicity. The sad thing is that people will not go out and read his books afterwards, especially if he comes off as an idiot (as I think he has to the fanfic community as a whole, which, let me tell you, is HUGE).

A lot of the commenters at his blog talked about using someone else's idea for one's own means to be stealing. This made me think of people like Weird Al Yankovich. He's hilarious, and he uses other people's songs and recreates them to be something funny. He has to ask permission to do this because of copyrights, but, in my opinion, he's doing the same thing fanfiction authors are doing. When you put something out there, thereby making it available to the public, it's hard to police what others choose to do with it. I think if you're going to publish something, you should be aware that some people are going to use your ideas. As a former mathematics student, I've often seen theorems are based off of other theorems. That's still using someone else's idea to improve your own thoughts, it is not? Is it just because math isn't copyrighted that this is okay?

I realise, like you, that some authors do not wish to have their thoughts used. But the only way to make sure that that happens is not to post them publicly in the first place and to keep them to yourself. It's ridiculous in a world full of billions of people to expect others to always respect your wishes. I think there's a difference between respecting an author and writing fanfiction, backwards as that may sound to supporters of Mr. Goldberg's view: the difference lies in the fact that they don't see it as being stealing or wrong. Lots of people are huge fans of JK Rowling (including myself), so we use her characters. I think she's a humourous, intelligent and witty woman, and I respect her as a person. I don't think that using her characters to create a story is wrong or immoral if I'm not making any money off of it (which I can assure you I'm not).

I think people would do better to take your view of things: to realise that fanfiction is just another form of publicity - a differing form of flattery and appreciation. It isn't a jab at you - it's a compliment. Take it the way it's meant instead of insisting it's a personal attack would be my advice.

Anyway, I have a tendency to be long-winded and for this, I apologise. I will say that I am of the camp that sees fanfiction as more of an exercise than real writing (and maybe this makes me a bit of a hypocrit, but I'm all right with that - I'm not a machine, and as such I will have a few inconsistencies; not many, but a few). I think it's more inventive to create your own characters than to use someone else's as your foundation, but I don't think it's wrong to do so, if that makes sense.

Anyway, thanks for letting me randomly comment here. I wish you luck with your books.

Thoughtful comments are always welcome, long-winded or otherwise! And thanks so much for the good luck wishes.

I for one would be thrilled to know that people loved my characters and my world enough to want to come on in and play, not to mention that I would be wildly grateful for the free publicity. I would love for people to put up posters and make costumes and invent their own stories and fantasize about my characters. If they did, that would mean I was doing something fundamentally right -- that I was creating characters that people wanted to make part of the shared culture by which we communicate with one another.

Based on that comment alone? You just sold yourself a book, and gained a reader. I'm definitely buying now. And I'll probably tell my friends, too.

*beams* Thank you! And also for helping make my point. *g*

I wonder if it's ever been pointed out to him, that if someone besides himself wrote the DM tie-in novels, even with his permission, it would still be fanfiction.

You know, I've never heard of you before Lee Goldberg's post about fanfiction. I think I'm going to go out and buy your book/books, as you seem reasonable and sane.

I think it's funny that an anti-fanfic person on his blog asked for just one published author who wrote fanfiction. Then when people listed a few authors that did, they were dismissed as the author was either dead, or in the sci-fi genre and therefore of lesser worth. Later, the whole argument was dismissed by people saying not to drag other authors into the argument without consent.

And when people start posting that fanfic authors don't have the "soul" of a writer, you know that joining in the discussion is useless.

I gave up trying to read the arguments of Mr. Goldberg et. all after a point. The pretension is bad enough, but the rudeness, illogical arguments, and mindboggling audacity to compare fanfiction to rape and molestation was more than I could take.

Regardless, just chiming in to note you've won another admirer. If I happen to see any of your work in a bookstore, I'll be certain to check it out.

I've already written my own series of novels. And I'm rather glad to find another author with a similiar viewpoint. If others like my stories enough to create fanfic, I'd be flattered. And for the same reasons you've listed.

I would guess that Lee G. is in the unenviable position of seeing pop writing threatening both his livelihood and his reputation. Still, he comes off as a weenie, so I have no sympathy. And also, I doubt he is really as threatened as he thinks he is. Though there is an entire generation being trained informally to do what he does better than he does it.

I know this is a rather late comment from far further down the road. But I don't know. I suppose I had to say something. I encountered Lee Goldberg not long ago. In fact, I would be that one under the alias of 'Yoli' who tried to defend my friend Shadow-of-the-Wolf when he rudely apprehended a quote from her website just to openly criticize it with his colleagues.

Although she did end up taking down her website and all her fanfiction just to get him off her back, Goldberg has yet to remove the blog completely. And I believe he's also deleted some of my comments in defense of her. I'm not positive on that. I realize that she did make herself look silly, but I didn't know it was so bad that a full-grown man would have a crying fit over it. I would think someone like Goldberg and his acquaintances would be far more mature than this. But alas.

It also seems he was crude to you as well. I hope there were no hard feelings. I can see he's been digging up whatever facts just to hurt you and your reputation. I can only think that it's simply because he's frustrated over his own contradictions. And that the host agreed that fanfiction was alright.

I do agree that authors should be happy they get fanfiction. And I don't say this in a way that if it's otherwise, it would be a sin. I realize that some are just very sensitive with how their characters are portrayed and 'sticking to the script', so to say. But otherwise, I mean, it's free advertising and it confirms that you're doing something that a lot of people enjoy.

I just wish that people would realize that even if you write an official original novel, you'll still get inspirations from other things you've seen. Even if it's at an unconscious level where you didn't even realize it until it was too late. I mean take George Harrison for example. He was sued for a little bit in one of his songs. Just a few chords I believe. Maybe he'd heard that song before and liked the sound of that and then time had passed, he was in the middle of recording, and he added that in without even thinking about it; I suppose you have to also think of just how many people are in the world now too. I can't even begin to imagine the total amounts of books, movies, even games that are in the world now that no doubt are tied to even our own original ideas.

I think I'll end here. Otherwise, I'll probably settle to rambling, and surely, you probably wouldn't want that on your blog.

Oh wait. It appears he didn't delete my comments. I just forgot there were two parts.

Hello! I actually found your LJ (this entry) through a post discussing gender, fandom, and capitalism which led me to fandom_wank of Lee Goldberg, which led me to this post in your LJ. I'm happy to have found it! I didn't know you had an LJ (actually, it's odd how many authors I'm discovering here... perhaps LJ calls to some of the professional writers the same as it does to fandom?)

I wanted to tell you that I read the post where Goldberg made pointless insults, and my reaction was this:

"Naomi Novik...who... oh yeah! I like her books. But... who's Lee Goldberg?"

I had to look it up to find out. So there you go.


I bought your first novel this year, and I liked it quite a bit (I actually reread half of it a few months later.) [review] I was travelling at the time, primarily in the Gulf states with AmeriCorps NCCC, and I bought His Majesty's Dragon in a binge-buy at the airport during layover. Airport bookstores are the WORST of temptations. Because I was moving around so much, I didn't end up buying the other two, but when I stopped for two weeks in a city where I had a library card (many of the libraries in New Orleans and St. Bernard's Parish are closed, but I was briefly in Denver), I remembered your book and checked out the sequels. I read them in a week and a half! That's pretty fast for me, because I procrastinate for books as much as I do everything else, despite my love for the written word.

I think the second was my favorite, for the details of how the Chinese dragon society lives. One thing I really like about your novels is the feel of historical detail in settings, language, customs, and props. I don't *know* if it's accurate, but it certainly sounds believable and when I'm reading that's what counts.

The third book was interesting, and felt different from the other two, probably given the travel/quest nature of the plot. I liked the addition of a dragon language. It was probably my least favorite of the three, not for lack of quality but because I just preferred the plot of the other two better. Still, I like that each of the books has a different feel... it's not Temeraire saving England all the time in a big fight. Each one has new settings, further development of the characters, and multiple minor plots that carry believably from book to book-- like Temeraire's penchant for progressive/anti-establishment politics.

Just wanted to let you know that I liked them, that I'm looking forward to the next, and that I friended your journal because I tend to assume that people who write books--and cross that magical line into recognized professional-- must have fascinating things to say about their regular lives as well (this has proven true and untrue depending on the writer.)

Chances are this fanfic writer bought my books and so is helping to pay for me to keep doing this. The last thing I want is to chase her off -- I want her to stay and invite all her friends to join in.

You know what the irony is about book-based fanfiction? In terms of percentage of media consumption to fan output, I spend more money on books
than I do on tv, movies, or anime. If I write a fanfic for a book or a tv show, it's far likely that I'll have spent money on the book series at some point than it is I'll have bought a DVD pack. I may not give much money back to tv (then again, its broadcast free anyway) or to anime or to overpriced CDs, but I give a fair amount to the book industry. I can't not buy books.